导演马特·里夫斯称，“新蝙”的灵感来自于70年代的电影、80年代的漫画以及……涅槃乐队
The 55-year-old opens up about the pressure of taking on the Dark Knight, and his decision to cast Robert Pattinson in the role
现年55岁的马特·里夫斯畅谈接棒黑暗骑士的重担以及他为何选择罗伯特·帕丁森出演该角色
With great power comes great responsibility. Yes, we know that's a different superhero, but how is the director of The Batman feeling?
能力越大，责任越大。对，我们知道那是另一部超级英雄电影里的台词，不知《新蝙蝠侠》导演目前感受如何呢？
“Terrified,” says Matt Reeves.
“胆战心惊。”马特·里夫斯回答。
The journey to the screen of the new Batman movie has been a long and grueling one. Almost a decade ago, Ben Affleck was cast as the Caped Crusader in Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. It is Affleck's most successful film at the box-office. By every other metric it was a disaster: critics hated it, fans hated it more and it launched DC down a route of superhero ensemble movies (Suicide Squad; Justice League) that got worse and worse. For every new star in an ever-more-twinkling Marvel Cinematic Universe, rival DC couldn't catch a break. The memory of Christopher Nolan's benchmark The Dark Knight trilogy appeared to be going gently into that good night. The best bet for Bat fans looked like another outing for Lego Batman, which at least was funny. But DC wanted another Batman movie.
“新蝙蝠侠”的摄制过程漫长而艰难。将近十年前，本·阿弗莱克被选中出演《蝙蝠侠大战超人：正义黎明》中的披风斗士。这是阿弗莱克的众多电影中票房成绩最好的一部，但反观其余指标，它都是一场灾难：影评人讨厌它，粉丝们更是骂声一片，它让DC走上了超级英雄集结影片的不归路（《自杀小队》、《正义联盟》），而且越陷越深。已然是“星光闪耀”的漫威电影宇宙仍不断涌现着一个个新星，不给竞争对手DC任何喘息的机会。记忆里克里斯托弗·诺兰的标杆之作——《黑暗骑士》三部曲好像已经温和地走进那个良夜。对于蝙蝠侠的粉丝来说，最好的赌注似乎是《乐高蝙蝠侠大电影》的续集，至少它有很多笑点。但DC想要一部不一样的蝙蝠侠电影。
They put in a call to Matt Reeves, director of the acclaimed monster movie Cloverfield (2008), as well as Dawn of the Planet of the Apes (2014) and War for the Planet of the Apes (2017). “Ben [Affleck] had been working on a version of the script,” Reeves says, “and I said, ‘Here's the thing: I respect that the DC Universe has become an extended universe and all the movies were kind of connected. But another Batman film, it shouldn't have to carry the weight of connecting the characters from all those other movies. I didn't want them in there.”
他们给马特·里夫斯打了个电话，那时他已经执导了备受赞誉的怪兽电影《科洛弗档案》（2008年）以及《猩球崛起2：黎明之战》（2014年）和《猩球崛起3：终极之战》（2017年）。“本（·阿弗莱克）已经写了剧本的初稿，”里夫斯说，“我认为，‘事情是这样的：我明白DC宇宙已经成为一个扩展宇宙，所有的电影都彼此联系。但一部新的蝙蝠侠电影不应该承担连接所有其他电影角色的重任。我并不想拍其他角色。'”
A Batman movie without Aquaman (he can control sea life), Cyborg (he's a cyborg) or any of the rest of the corny Justice League characters already sounded like a 100 per cent improvement. As Robert Pattinson — we'll get to him — says in a two-minute promotional showreel for the new film, “Batman has stood out as one of the major characters of the 20th century, and so many people connect with it on such a deep level for so many reasons.” He deserved better.
一部没有海王（他能控制海洋生物）、没有钢骨（他是个半机械人）或其他任何老掉牙的正义联盟角色的蝙蝠侠电影，听起来已经是百分之百的进步了。正如罗伯特·帕丁森——我们待会儿会说到他——在新蝙的2分钟宣传片中所说，“蝙蝠侠作为20世纪举足轻重的电影角色之一，太多人与这个角色产生了很深的共鸣，出于各种各样的原因。”他值得更好的对待。
Reeves's next issue was this. Sure, you could reboot Batman — it's been done dozens of times since he first appeared in Detective Comics in 1939, almost certainly more. But would anyone have the stomach for yet another retelling of his origin story, from a slightly different angle? “We've seen it so many times,” Reeves says. “It's been done too much. I knew we couldn't do that.”
里夫斯还有一个问题。你当然可以重启蝙蝠侠——正如他1939年首次出现在DC漫画中以来的十几次重启那样，甚至还不止。但是真的会有人愿意再看一遍蝙蝠侠的起源故事吗？就算是又换了一个新的角度？“我们已经看过太多遍了，”里夫斯说，“这件事被重复了太多次。我知道我们不能那样拍。”
He set about a ton of reading and was blown away by the comic Batman: Year One, the 1987 four-issue run by writer Frank Miller and artist David Mazzucchelli, that showed a young and in-turmoil Bruce Wayne figuring out how to be a be a vigilante. The tone is detective noir, the violence is street-level and nasty, and you will search in vain for a feat of superhero derring-do or a groaning Mr Freeze “Allow-me-to-break-the-ice”-style pun. Calling Batman: Year One realistic would be a stretch. But it is somewhere near as realistic as a comic book about a mentally dubious loner who puts on a disguise and begins hunting criminals come night. This proto-Batman underestimates his opponents, gets shot by the police, and his costume doesn't fit. (It's great, and it happens to be my favourite comic book.) Other influences on Reeves included New Hollywood classics from the 1970s: The French Connection, Chinatown and Taxi Driver. Also, Kurt Cobain.
他开始大量研读相关作品，并被漫画《蝙蝠侠：元年》所震撼。这是作家弗兰克·米勒和艺术家大卫·马祖切利在1987年创作的四期漫画，展示了一个年轻的、内心慌乱不安的布鲁斯·韦恩如何成为一名义jing的故事。漫画的基调宛如一部黑色侦探片，充斥着肮脏的街头bao力，别指望能从中找到一些超级英雄的英勇事迹，或者急冻人的“请允许我破冰/自我介绍一下”这样的双关语。如果要说《蝙蝠侠：元年》是现实主义，那也不至于。但作为一部漫画，讲述了一个自我怀疑的独行侠于夜幕降临之时披上伪装、追捕zui犯的故事，它已经足够写实了。这位尚处于雏形的蝙蝠侠经常低估他的对手，会被警察击伤，还穿着不合身的制服。（这很棒，而且正好是我最喜欢的漫画书。）里夫斯还受到了其他作品的影响，包括70年代的新好莱坞经典作品：《法国fan du网》、《唐人街》和《出租车司机》。还有，科特·柯本。
“Early on, when I was writing, I started listening to Nirvana, and there was something about [Nevermind song] ‘Something in the Way', which is in the first trailer, which is part of the voice of that character. When I considered, ‘How do you do Bruce Wayne in a way that hasn't been seen before?' I started thinking, ‘What if some tragedy happened [ie: Wayne sees his parents murdered] and this guy becomes so reclusive, we don't know what he's doing? Is this guy some kind of wayward, reckless, drug addict?' And the truth is that he is a kind of drug addict. His drug is his addiction to this drive for revenge. He's like a Batman Kurt Cobain.”
“早期我在写剧本的时候，我在听涅槃乐队的歌，那首Something in the Way（出自Nirvana的专辑Nevermind）特别吸引我，也就是第一版预告里的那首歌，它成为了角色声音的一部分。我当时想，‘你要如何以一种前所未见的角度呈现布鲁斯·韦恩'？我开始思考，‘如果他遭遇了一些不幸（比如韦恩目睹自己的父母被谋杀），然后变得非常幽闭，以至于我们也不清楚他在做什么。这家伙是某种任性、鲁莽的yin君子吗'？事实上，他的确是某种意义上的yin君子，他对复仇成瘾。他就像一个蝙蝠侠版本的科特·柯本。”
Batman's main opponent in The Batman is The Riddler. Not the Jim Carrey version in the lime-green catsuit covered in question marks from Val Kilmer's Batman Forever (1995). But a costume-less, schlubby Paul Dano interpretation, who communicates with the police via cyphers, based on the Zodiac Killer. Batman is one superhero without superpowers — but he is “the world's greatest detective”. Reeves's Batman, to the shock and awe of The Internet when it was announced in 2019, is Robert Pattinson.
《新蝙蝠侠》电影中，蝙蝠侠的主要对手是谜语人。不是方·基默的《永远的蝙蝠侠》（1995年）中那个穿着荧光绿连体服、满身问号的金·凯瑞。而是一个穿着普通，略显笨拙的保罗·达诺。他饰演的谜语人以《十二宫杀手》为灵感，通过密码与jing察交流。尽管蝙蝠侠是一个没有超能力的超级英雄，但他是“世界上最伟大的侦探”。里夫斯的蝙蝠侠人选在2019年公布之时，曾令互联网感到震惊和震撼，正是罗伯特·帕丁森。
“Of course, the idea [to fit with the Year One story] was to make him a younger actor,” he says. “And in the process of writing the movie, I watched [the fantastic 2017 Safdie brothers film] Good Time, and I thought, ‘Okay, he's got an inner kind of rage that connects with this character and a dangerousness, and I can feel this desperation.' And I became dead-set on it being Rob. And I had no idea if Rob had any interest! Because, of course, he had done all of these indie movies after he established himself in Twilight.”
“当然，为了配合《蝙蝠侠：元年》的故事，我们想选一个年轻的演员，”马特·里夫斯说，“在电影创作的过程中，我看了《好时光》（萨弗迪兄弟2017年导演的精彩作品），然后我就想，‘好吧，帕丁森内心的愤怒与这个角色还有危险本身达成了共鸣，我能感受到他身上的危险与绝望'。于是我变得死心塌地，认为蝙蝠侠就该是罗伯特·帕丁森。可我当时甚至不知道罗伯特是否会感兴趣！因为他在《暮光之城》后拍了这么多独立电影来确立自己的地位。”
Unbeknownst to Reeves — or presumably anyone at DC — he had one thing on his side: Pattinson was a huge Batman fan. “He'd heard that we were doing this and got excited about the idea that there was going to be another version of this character,” Reeves says. “And so when I met him, and he read the script, we talked for a long, long time and I realised, ‘This guy is a massive fan'.”
然而，里夫斯，或者身处DC的任何人都不知道的是，他们并不是毫无说服力：帕丁森是蝙蝠侠的超级粉丝。“他听说了我们在做这个项目，并且对将会有另一个版本的蝙蝠侠这个想法感到兴奋，”里夫斯说，“因此当我和他见面，让他读了剧本并且谈了很久之后，我意识到，‘这家伙是个铁杆粉丝'。”
Pattinson fit the part — but he still had to audition. Ridiculously, he did so in Val Kilmer's old Batsuit. “Warner Brothers are like, ‘Look, we're not going to make anything for somebody for a screentest'. But you go there [into WB] and they've got all the suits, going back to Michael Keaton. They said, ‘Look, we've done this on every single one. [Christian] Bale came in and he put on one of the original suits.'
帕丁森是这个角色的绝佳人选，但他仍须通过试镜。碰巧的是，他是穿着方·基默的蝙蝠侠道具服去试镜的。“华纳的人说，‘听着，我们不会因为区区一个试镜就为某人量身定做一套制服'。但是你去华纳那儿找，这些制服他们都有，甚至连迈克尔·基顿的都有。他们说，‘听着，每一个来试镜的人都是这样，当时克里斯蒂安·贝尔来了也只能穿原来的制服'。”
“I'm not going to say it fitted well,” Reeves continues. “But it fitted the best. It was sort of old, and as he started acting, he started heating up the cowl and the cowl started to sag on his face. You could see him thinking, ‘How am I going to act in this suit?' But putting on a Batman suit is also transformative. You start to feel the power of having that armour on.”
“我不会说它很合身，”里夫斯接着说道，“但却是最适合的。它有一点旧，当帕丁森开始表演时，面罩也开始受热，垂在了他的脸上。你看着他，会开始思考‘我穿上这件制服要怎么表演'。但穿上蝙蝠侠制服后你的气质也会改变。你会开始感到蝙蝠盔甲的力量。”
Completing the Grunge Gotham vibe, as the 31m people who saw The Batman trailer in its first 24 hours noticed, Pattinson's Batman is wearing emo-eyeliner. What's up with that?
在完整呈现哥谭肮脏的氛围后，正如3100万观众在蝙蝠侠新预告播出24小时内注意到的，帕丁森饰演的蝙蝠侠化了眼妆。这是怎么回事？
“You can't wear a cowl and not wear that. All of the Batmen wear that,” says Reeves, not entirely convincingly. “I just loved the idea of taking off [the mask] and under that there's the sweating and the dripping and the whole theatricality of becoming this character.”
“你不能穿着头罩而不化眼妆。所有蝙蝠侠都化了这个,”里夫斯说，但在电影里没有很好地表现出来。“我很喜欢摘下(面罩)的想法，在这头罩之下，是汗流浃背的，这构成了整个角色的戏剧性。”
One of the things that makes the Batman character so interesting is that he's so malleable. He can be campy Adam West from the 1960s or angry Christian Bale from the 2000s — and both are equally valid. By an overwhelming majority, the YouTube comments section is going crazy for the “I'm vengeance!” this-guy's-nuts punchiness of Pattinson's 2020s version, based on two or three trailers. But it's fair to say that not everyone thought the skinny guy from Twilight was a stroke of genius casting.
蝙蝠侠的其中一个魅力点在于他的可塑性。他可以是20世纪60年代装模作样的亚当 · 韦斯特，也可以是2000年愤怒的克里斯蒂安 · 贝尔，两者都是可行的。油管上大部分评论都在为“吾即复仇!”而疯狂。这句高光台词出自2020年帕丁森的版本，基于两三个预告。但并不是每个人都觉得暮光之城里的瘦小个能成就这个伟大的角色。
“There has been no actor, when his announcement that he was going to be playing Batman in one of the feature films was announced, that has not received a backlash,” Reeves says.
“没有一个演员，在官宣饰演蝙蝠侠之后，不会遭到反对。”里夫斯说道。
“The people who were excited, I knew it was because they knew Rob's work post-Twilight. The people who weren't excited, I knew it was because they didn't know Rob's work post-Twilight.”
“那些对此很兴奋的人，我认为他们了解罗伯特在暮光之城之后的作品。而那些无动于衷的人，很明显只知道他演了暮光之城。”
What about the other iconography that comes with the character, however you choose tell his story? In The Batman, Wayne Manor is depicted as falling to bits — “He doesn't care about any of the trappings of being a [millionaire] Wayne at this point,” Reeves says, citing Gus Van Sant's Last Days, the 2005 fictionalised version of Kurt Cobain's sad, slow demise (just like that film, we'll apparently see amps stacked up in a storage room).
这个角色的其他形象又是怎样的呢，你会选择怎样讲述他的故事？在《蝙蝠侠》中，韦恩庄园被刻画成支离破碎的模样——“此时此刻，他对百万富翁韦恩的身份丝毫不感兴趣,”里夫斯说。他引用了格斯 · 范 · 桑特2005年拍摄的电影《最后的日子》，电影虚构版本的柯特 · 科本悲伤、缓慢地死亡(就像那部电影一样，我们必然会看到放在储藏室里的电吉他)。
The new Batcave is based on a secret underground railway that still exists in New York. “The idea being that some of these wealthy industrialist families had private train cars at the turn of the century. So the Batcave is actually in the foundation of this tower. It was [another] way of saying, ‘How can we root all these things in things that feel real, but also extraordinary?'”
新的蝙蝠洞是基于一个秘密的地下铁路站台所建，且仍然存在于纽约。“我们的构想是，在世纪之交，这些富裕的实业家族曾拥有一些私人火车车厢。蝙蝠洞实际上就建在塔楼的地基上。换句话说，‘我们怎样才能把所有的东西都植根于那些感觉真实又异乎寻常的东西中呢？”
And finally, a new Batmobile. “The Nolan films established the Batmobile as a tank, which was a brilliant idea,” Reeves says. “But I thought, ‘Wouldn't it be cool if this guy is a loner and a gearhead and fashioning these things by himself, taking parts of other cars and kit cars?' So it's recognisable as a car this time. But it's like a muscle car. One that he's made himself.”
最后，一辆新的蝙蝠车。“诺兰的电影把蝙蝠车改造成了一个坦克，这是一个很棒的主意。”“但我想，‘如果他是个独行侠，且是个机械迷，自己改装这些东西，从其他汽车和组装车上拆取零件，岂不是很酷？'所以这次它被设定成一辆车。但它就像一辆肌肉车。由布鲁斯·韦恩亲自改装而成。”
Reeves says it's daunting but also hugely exciting to see his Batman come to life — he is days away from finishing the film when this interview takes place in late 2021.
里夫斯说，看到他的蝙蝠侠跃然银幕中，这让人感到害怕，但同时也非常激动人心。这次采访在2021年末进行的，他还有几天就要完成这部电影了。
“I'm very proud of it. I felt it was the best version of the story that we could possibly do to justify having another Batman,” he says. “You always have to have a reason, and from the beginning that was the mission for me.” Sequels and Gotham City-based spin-offs are being planned. It's safe to assume they will remain Aquaman-free. At least for now. “It will obviously have a lot to do with how people receive this film,” Reeves says. “But a lot of things are in the works.”
“我为此感到非常自豪。我觉得这是我们能诠释的故事的最好版本，以此证明蝙蝠侠的另一面,”他说。“你总是需要一个理由，这就是我的使命，从始至终。”电影续作和以哥谭市为基础的剧集正在规划中。可以推测这些作品仍会保留在新蝙的独立宇中宙。至少现在看来是这样。“这显然与人们对这部电影的接受度挂钩”里夫斯说。“但还有很多事情正在进行中。”
When Bruce Wayne/Batman first goes looking for criminals in Batman: Year One, there is one frame in which Reeves noted that “he's dressed in what I thought looked like an image out of Taxi Driver”. Some of Frank Miller's notes to David Mazzucchelli are included at the back of a commemorative edition of Year One, published a few years ago. Of that same frame, Miller writes he wanted Batman “to basically look like he's won a Taxi Driver-lookalike competition”. Reeves laughed out loud when he read that. They were literally on the same page.
当布鲁斯 · 韦恩/蝙蝠侠第一次在《蝙蝠侠: 元年》中搜寻zui犯的时候，有一个画面里，里夫斯注意到“他的穿着打扮，我觉着看起来像《出租车司机》里的形象”。弗兰克•米勒写给大卫•马祖切利的一些笔记，被收录在几年前出版的纪念版《元年》的背面。对于同样的画面，米勒写道，他希望蝙蝠侠“看起来像赢得了一场类似'出租车司机'的比赛”。当里夫斯读到这句话的时候，他大笑起来。他们的观点完全一致。
At the start of this article, there was one DC film we overlooked. One that bucked its run of rum luck — and did so in spectacular style. That film was 2019's double-Oscar-winning Joker. A key influence on that? Also Taxi Driver. Don't bet that Batman isn't about to rise again.
在文章的开头，我们忽略了一部DC 电影。一部逆着一片嘘声，以一种引人注目的方式创作的电影。这部电影就是2019年获得两项奥斯卡奖的《小丑》。这对《新蝙蝠侠》有什么关键性的影响吗？还有电影《出租车司机》。别赌蝙蝠侠不会再次崛起。